:Questions + Answers with Pujya Shree

"Questions & Answers with Pujya Sri Mota"

All the proceeding letters (revised and enlarged for publication) were addressed to the translator (Pujya Sri Hemantmumar Nilkanth). The following questions were put by Pujya Sri Nandubhai, the worthy successor of Pujya Sri Mota.

The reader is requested to remember that the translator has not had any personal experience of the very high states of spirituality, including that of ‘niravata’ (complete soundlessness) the earliest stage. And the nuances of Sanskrit (and Gujarati which is largely derived from Sanskrit) are different from those of English. The translator therefore feels that though he has done his best, he is very likely to have tripped in explaining in English those very high states of spirituality.

Sri Nandubhai: What is your view of rites performed at Siddhapur and Bodhgaya to aid the departed souls?

Pujya Sri Mota: There is no meaning today in these rites. They cannot help the souls of deceased relatives. The reason behind the custom may possibly be this: Some pure and revered person, or persons, may have performed some rites at these places with the firm resolve to help their dear departed souls. Owing to the reverence with which they were held, some others may have done the same thing there; and then a regular custom may have been established. At least at present all such things become a matter of dead routine.

Sri Nandubhai: It is ever possible for a man in a coma to remember God at the last moment of his life?* (There is a popular belief in India that a man who remembers God even at the last moment of his life is saved; his sins are forgiven.) And if an aspirant, who has made sincere efforts for a long time to remember God, becomes unconscious before his death, do all this previous efforts go in vain?

Pujya Sri Mota: His efforts do not become useless. What is essential for fruitfulness is a man’s overall behavior in life. Even a small effort does bear its fruit**.

On the other hand, a man who happens to remember God accidentally at his last moment, without doing so all through his life – an accident next to impossible – he would not be redeemed just because of that single passing thought of God. At the same time, life-long indifference but unfailing remembrance of God (e.g. due to a shock) for the last two or three days only is sure to have some definite gain.

*There is a popular belief in India that a man who remembers God even at the last moment of his life is saved; his sins are forgiven.

**This action is never lost. It knows no se-back. A very little of this ‘Dharma’ saves a man from great dangers- Bhagawad Gita

Sri Nandubhai: Narad had completely realized God and yet he is said to have succumbed to a woman’s charms. Even Brahma (the Creator of universe) had fallen a victim to carnal love for his own daughter. Is all this possible?

Pujya Sri Mota: Impossible. That is all idle talk. A mere fancy. Self-realized persons – those who have really attained that state (not megalomaniacs or swindlers) – can never fall prey to infatuation. All these cock-and-bull stories may have been invented in order to impress upon the people the great power of lust to make people strenuous in their efforts to conquer passion.

Sri Nandubhai: In ancient times sacrifices were performed for gaining the birth of a son. For instance, King Dashrath became a father, begetting the son, Sri Ramchandra, as the result of a sacrifice. That is what the scriptures say. Sacrifices were performed for rain, etc. Do you think such sacrifices performed now-a-days desirable and helpful?

Pujya Sri Mota: The successful attainment of the desired object of a sacrifice depends largely upon the initiator’s faith and good character, and especially upon the purity and will power of the ordained priest. Firm resolve by a highly evolved soul can certainly make a sacrifice yield the desired fruit. But in the sacrifices performed by Brahmins at present, there is rarely that resolute will and perfect purity which is essential for the fulfillment of the objective of a sacrifice. It is nothing now but the wooden track of an outworn custom.

Then again, in ancient times oblations of ghee (clarified butter), money, corn, etc. were offered. The same is also done today. Very possibly those were the days of abundance and there might have been propriety in such costly offerings to agni (Fire conceived as a deity). It is doubtful whether such extravagance is justifiable now.

The meaning of the word ‘yagna’ (sacrifice) has also been changing with the times. For instance, the Bhagawad Gita speaks of a number of ‘yagnas’ and chanting God’s name is the best among them*.

Every age has its own characteristic and consequently its special significance. Hence the purpose behind a sacrifice differs with every age. The connotation of ‘yagna’ also changes on the material, mental (or spiritual), and casual planes**.

In ancient times ‘yagnas’ were performed as a means to get one’s desires or aspirations fulfilled. That made the ‘yagna’ not the goal of life, but only the medium or means for some attainment. The best kind of ‘yagna’ is to go on offering at the Lotus Feet of God the urges of the mind, i.e. the impulses of the degrading tendencies of our temperament. That offering must emanate from our conscious desire for self-reform and must be full of love for God. We ought to have the desire to perform only that ‘yagna’; which is beneficial to us ‘sadhaks’.

In accordance with their clime, and circumstances, the idea of ‘yagna’ sprang up in the minds of our ancient sages and saints. The connotation of ‘yagna’ was naturally in conformity with their needs. Then a whole ‘shastra (authentic scriptural text)’ emerged for the guidance of different sacrifices.

The numerous kinds of ‘yagnas’ performed in the past for the satisfaction of mundane desires are not suitable to the aspiration of a higher life and such ‘yagnas’ are useless from the sadhak’s point of view.

*“Among all the sacrifices I (God) am the sacrifice of ‘japa (incantation)’. It means that the best sacrifice is that of remembering God’s name”- Gita.

**That is, the cause of all existence is itself a ‘yagna’.

Sri Nandubhai: When a perfectly realized person takes a new birth (at God’s behest), is he a perfected soul right from his birth or has he to undergo some spiritual exercises?

Pujya Sri Mota: In his new birth also, he has very usually to perform what may look like ‘sahdhana’. But that ‘sadhana’ may be only nominal and just by way of providing an example for emulation. The perfected soul doesn’t take a long time to scale the heights of spirituality. He can do so in a very few, say five, years. All the same there are no hard and fast rules that every realized soul has got to observe. As signs of future greatness there is also the possibility of supernatural events happening in his childhood or teen age. It may also be that parents and kith and kin have no inkling at all of his greatness.

Sri Nandubhai: Can your realization be termed the same as that of Purushottama (the state beyond the Oversoul) subscribed in the Bhagawad Gita – 15 canto)? Does it mean realization with attribute or without? In other words, was it of the kind called ‘dwaita’ (realization of dualism in which the knower is aware of the known, i.e. qualitative existence) or of ‘adwaita’ (oneness or experience of non-dualism) or of the still higher stage where in there is neither duality nor even oneness (since the word “one” suggests the possible existence of two or zero)?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes, it may be regarded as that experience.

Nandubhai: Will you explain your experience of self-realization of the saguna (dwaita) type?

Pujya Sri Mota: Lord Krishna appeared twice or thrice; but not in the form we see in his pictures, say, that of Lord Krishna with a flute. Nor had it (the form) a body made up of earth and other elements. All the same it was a thing of angelic beauty and supernal light. It looked like beauty personified. It was a vision no language could describe. It possessed such power of captivating the mind and heart that nothing, real or imaginable, could stand in comparison with it.

It was a very lively from, sky coloured soft as butter, florid and smooth like and opaque glittering substance, It was much more than the most entrancing three-dimensional form. At times I could see it frisking and gambolling, now stock-still now walking, coming suddenly very near and then going away some distance. I could also find it entering my body, touching my mind and other inner implements, and doing what was mystifying at first. Then I found it engaged there in some repairing work. Later, it appeared sitting majestically on the spot below the meeting point of the eyebrows and next in the brahmarandhra (an aperture in the crown of the head). All the component parts of the inner self appeared to be full of light and red-hot in colour. I could experience the self within me and sometimes its expansion outside.

The ethereal appearance of Sri Krishna was so wonderful, hair-raising, romantic, loving, charming, that it cannot be described in words. My whole body seemed weightless and suspended in the air with nothing above or below to support it. The (devinizing) effect of that darshan spread through all the parts of my being and by God’s grace it has remained permanently with me since then.

Not that this experience eliminated all the obstacles that usually come in the ever growing subtle and supernatural stages of spirituality. They too had to be surmounted.

After this memorable event I could experience a wonderful transformation in all parts of my inner being and it became a permanent and progressively brilliant feature of my life.

This sublime state, once it is attained keeps the person affected so powerfully attracted and attached to it that henceforth there is no set-back from that state. It becomes a permanent feature of his life. When he attains this samadhi (total absorption in meditation), he knows that the purpose of his life has been fulfilled. But that is not the summum bonum. It is what may be called individual Self-realization though, which is the stage of constant automatic progress. Then gradually he arrives at the stage when the slightest stimulation from material objects — such as the sight of some beautiful object, a charming natural scenery, the sound of ripples in a stream, the flowering bloom of a big tree, the smile of a charming healthy baby, as well as from immaterial feelings aroused by hearing a moving hymn or by an excellent expression of a soul-stirring thought — brings about the same state of Sadhana and he feels himself full of bliss and peace. The beneficial effect of that samadhi lingers for a long time in his daily life.

Nandubhai: Does the experience of saguna brahma (the Primeval Essence with attribute) necessarily include that of nirguna brahma (Essence without attribute)?

Pujya Sri Mota: No, Not necessarily. In the same way the experience of nirguna brahma does not automatically contain that of saguna brahma. Both are separate states of experience and require two different attainments. Mukti (deliverance from bondage), however, can be attained by the experience of either saguna or nirguna brahma. The experiences of both saguna and nirguna brahma are, of course, preferable.

Sakshatkar (actual realization) is different from darshan (vision or sight) and the difference should be understood. Saguna sakshatkar is the same as dwaita-anubhava (experience of dualism) — i.e. one in which the experiencer is conscious of himself.*

Saguna sakshatkar is different from nirguna sakshatkar (realization in which “I consciousness” does not exist), but one cannot say that either of the two is higher than the other. Anyone who has had the experience of either saguna or nirguna brahma can become a mukta (released from bondage). It is also possible to have the sakshatkar of both saguna and nirguna brahma. Devotees such as Narsinha Mehta** experienced both saguna and nirguna brahma. The realization of both saguna and nirguna brahma is not an indispensable condition for becoming a mukta. Some sadhak may gain the experience of nirguna brahma first (and be a mukta) and then of saguna brahma, or he may even never have the second experience. In the same way, in the case of some other person, the experience of saguna brahma may precede that of nirguna or he may never have this latter experience, though he too may become a mukta.

Real saguna sakshtkar means perfect manifestation or efflorescent expression of chetan (all-pervading life) in a realized person’s self.

*The Bhagawad Gita refers to the difference between darshan and sakshatkar in the following verse: “By one pointed devotion (alone) My omnipresence can be (1) known (understood), (2) seen (visualized), and (3) entered into (meaning completely realized by getting merged into) Me.” — Gita XI-54

**The father of modern Gujarati poetry, he suffered severe persecution from his castemen (Nagars, the highest even among Brahmins) owing to his daring feat — performing a kirtan ( a long eulogy of God in prose and verse) in the segregated quarters of untouchables.

Nandubhai: When and how did you have the experience of adwaita (without dualism) or nirvikalpa (formless) or nirguna (without quality)?* did your state of mukta begin just after the experience or some time later? Is the passage of time (after the adwaita or dwaita experience) a necessary condition for gaining mukti (freedom from bondage)?

Pujya Sri Mota: The adwaita experience took place on Ramnavmi (nineth day of Chaitra, the birthdate of Shree Ramchandra), the 29^th of March 1939. The light of millions of suns — so to say — seemed to be around me and then in entered my body. At that time my consciousness had gone into deep samadhi. When outward consciousness returned, my procreative organ and the surrounding area were found to have been burning as if on fire. Shree Pathaksaheb, the Dean of the Ayurvedic college in Banaras (Ayurved is the name given to the medical science developed by Hindus), kindly treated me without any fee. Since that experience, my state of mukta began. The very lively consciousness of my omnipresence began to develop and has continued to do so since then.

The experience that I had at that time was that of saguna brahma; but out of it immediately there happened, or I made, a very big jump and entered into the experience of nirguna brahma. When that experience was firmly established in all parts of my being, there arose along with outer consciousness a complete inner concetration on the Source Divine. After that event I had the experience of constantly expanding my oneness with others. One cannot say that I had merely an immaterial feeling or a mental certainty of that oneness. I had the extraordinary experience of at once being completely one with other objects or persons and yet of being separate from them. One can definitely say that the quality and function of universal chetan (life) then began to manifest themselves in my life.

The worldly-minded mother has indeed a kind of oneness with her offspring, but that is due to her innate human prakriti (nature). That oneness, moreover, is not a constant feature of her life. The historical example of Babar and his son Humayun may also be regarded as the result of the intense desire of Babar, though he too was but an erring mortal.**

Such an event besides is a very rare occurrence. But events happening in a realised soul’s life are not the outcome of his early lower nature, since he has outgrown it. In his case there is constant oneness with others. This oneness however does not always remain constant with all realised souls. In some muktas oneness exists in some parts of their being for sometime and then it disappears. In others this oneness pervades the whole being and yet it ceases to exist after some time. This oneness may be temporary because that mukta’s body is not developed enough to be able to totally absorb his experience of oneness.

*The words adwaita, nirvikalpa and nirguna have practically the same meaning.

**Humayun fell dangerously ill and despaired of his life. Some muslim adept told Babar that Humayun could recover if Babar, with the deepest earnestness in his heart, offered his own life to God in Humayun’s place. Babar did so and Humayun got back his life.

Nandubhai: What is the difference between the results of mukti attained through knowledge (experiential knowledge, not mere intellectual conviction) and through devotion?

Pujya Sri Mota: One who attains mukti through experiential knowledge gains the serene look of a passive witness toward everything; but a man who becomes a realized soul through bhakti (devotion) attains not only that simple serenity of a witness; but also posesses the power of feeling positive joy even in things that are painful to others. That mukta (through devotion) is not only a witness but also the giver of approbation to, as well as the Lord of, all that exists. All the three qualities pervade in him simultaneously and with lively awareness.

Nandubhai: Can a mukta recognize at first sight another mukta?

Pujya Sri Mota: No, because he has no need to take cognizance of any other's spiritual status. He has no such desire at all. It is not his privince to evaluate others' attainments.

Nandubhai: Can he recognize another's state as that of mukta by going into samadhi?

Pujya Sri Mota: But why should he go into samadhi at all for that purpose? There is, moreover, no "going into samadhi" for a mukta. He is always in sahaj samadhi (natural samadhi, i.e., the state in which the outward consciousness is as active and alive as that of a wordly man and still his inner consciousness of being the same as Life Eternal is always unintermittent). But before becoming a mukta, there is a stage in which the highly evolved soul can perceive, as if transparent, the stage of any person. Any mukta also can, but he never cares to do so.

Nandubhai: What is the essential meaning of Shivalinga (the pagodalilke emblem of Lord Shiva, one of the Trinity of Hindu Gods).

Pujya Sri Mota: It is a symbol. It indicates that man's consciousness must rise higher and higher in all fields of life. Man has got to go on evolving or developing himself incessantly. The stony circle around the emblem shows man's limitations due to his prakriti (falling nature). Man's ever-ascending consciousness has got to prevail over those limitations and make progress in all directions. There is sturdy bull in front. It represents man's egoistic vitality and mentality. These have to be controlled and the head of the bull must be so turned so it can see God Shiva. Just near and in front of the Shiva-linga we see a tortoise. Man is thereby asked to imitate it and constrict within himself all his senses, as they lead him away from God to transitory pleasures. Our sages and saints used to express their spiritual attainment through impressive symbols.

Nandubhai: Does a man become unconscious at the time of his death by taking some poison? Since its effect usually increases gradually, does he not remain conscious till the end? Can be remember God at the time?

Pujya Sri Mota: He becomes completely unconscious before he dies. Remembrance of God at that moment is not possible for ordinary men, since throughout their lives have been immersed in worldly affairs.

Nandubhai: If a mukta is bitten by a cobra would his body suffer and die? May not his ahinsa (non-violence or universal deep love) prove to be an antidote?

Pujya Sri Mota: He would die, but his non-violence would not be useless. It would keep him unperturbed and unafraid. He would not pray to God to save his life.

Nandubhai: Can the attainment of complete niravata (soundless - not even the slightest sound made by the ripple of a thought rises in his mind without his wish) be regarded as the aim of all kinds of sadhana?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes, in a way; but niravata is not the final aim or the only purpose of sadhana. One has to transcend it, go far beyond that stage.

Nandubhai: What is the real meaning of mahasamadhi (great spiritual trance)?

Pujya Sri Mota: Mahasamadhi is really that samadhi by which one gains brahmagnyana (experiential knowledge of brahma) or complete realization (sakshtkar) of adwaita (non dualism). But at present, different people mean different things by the word.

Nandubhai: What is the difference between jada samadhi (a state in which the man appears to be a dunce or incapable of motion, like a log of wood) and bhava samadhi (samadhi in which bhava, exuberant feeling, predominates)?

Pujya Sri Mota: In the former samadhi it is not true that the man ceases to breathe, his veins do not throb, outward consciousness is completely lost, the heart is at a standstill, and the nervous system ceases to function. He appears like a man in an unconscious state or lying in deep sleep, but he is awake within and aware of himself. Of course his veins throb much more slowly and my even stop throbbing temporarily. After repeated experiences of such samadhi, he comes to the state of sahaja samadhi (absorption in the self even during normal outward consciousness) and then his blood circulation remains normal.

Nandubhai: Is saralata (total guilelessness or unaffected simplicity) a necessary stage for attaining Samadhi?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes.

Nandubhai: Does a mukta's automatic chant continue even after becoming a mukta?

Pujya Sri Mota: No. A mukta does not need the chanting after reaching that state. The habit drops by itself. He does not stick to the means by which he had come to the mukta state. And he is always in living atonement with the primeval essence.

Nandubhai: Then why do you often turn your thumb round and round?

Pujya Sri Mota: To remind others that they should go on chanting, to set an example for them to follow. Such a movement makes chanting easier.

Nandubhai: During the stage preceding Sadhak's mukta state but after his chanting becomes effortless, do his ears hear the sound of his internal chanting?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes, quite clearly.

Nandubhai: When did the latter stage of automatic chanting begin in your case?

Pujya Sri Mota: After being bitten by a serpent; most probably after 1928.

Nandubhai: When did you arrive at the niravata stage?

Pujya Sri Mota: In about 1930.

Nandubhai: What was the quantum of your sleep at that time?

Pujya Sri Mota: I could have practically no sleep at all. Years and years have been spent in many sleepless nights. and yet, by day, for as many as twelve hours, I did my office work at the Harijan Sevak Sangh.

Nandubhai: How can the body stand such terrific strain without the rest that sleep affords? Did not your sleeplessness have any adverse effect on your calls of nature?

Pujya Sri Mota: The body easily retains its vigour from the great vitality that (divine) consciousness provides. Neither the physical body nor the internal implements (mind, etc.) that keep up life have to suffer.

Nandubhai: Is it not true that without control over hunger, thirst, desires and such other demands of the body, and the mind one can never gain mukti?

Pujya Sri Mota: Quite true. Only after one gains complete mastery over them, the state of a mukta begins. Owing to his aspiration's volcanic zeal that feat becomes possible. In that state all the insistent claims of attendance made by his material body, his vital urges, and his mind are given up and the mukta's sway over them become a settled fact of his very nature.

Nandubhai: Very few thoughts occur in a dullard's (tamasic) mind. Can that state be more helpful for attaining niravata than that of another person whose mind is active (rajasik) in thinking of many things? Is it not true that only after a man goes above dullness of mind and reaches the (rajasik) state of activity, even over-activity, and then comes to the (sattvic) state of serenity of mind, can he reach the state of niravata?

Pujya Sri Mota: A dunce's (tamasic) mentality does not help him in gaining niravata earlier. He has but to evolve as a man of an active (rajasik) mentality and only then can he attain the (sattwic) state of serenity and then of niravata. The man of rigid (tamasic) mentality cannot make any strenuous effort for progress in sadhana. But when he is fired with tremendous enthusiasm for it, that zeal itself turns his even moribund temperament to an active spirited one. No rigidity can stand against the onslaught of intense desire and then automatically the person comes to the state of (rajasik) activity. Owing to his zest for self-reform the defects of over-activity, noise and bustle of rajasik nature do not affect him for long. The man who wants to make any progress must first possess a buring longing for it. With it there is no possibility of a lasting aversion to activity.

Nandubhai: Some sadhaks say that they had actually heard the inner voice. Can that voice be heard as distinctly in the ear as the unstruck sound (anahat nad) that some yogis hear?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes, A voice may rise up in the heart; it may be heard as distinctly as the voice of some person who asks you to do something. But that only happens in the case of sadhaks in highly advances stages.*

*Mahatma Gandhi once declared that he heard very clearly a voice from his heart asking him to go on a fast. "For how may days?" he asked. "Twenty-one" came the answer.

Nandubhai: does such an inner voice arise in the heart of mukta and do all his actions proceed from its dictates?

Pujya Sri Mota: the question of an inner voice does not arise at all in his case. True, an inner voice comes up only after several high stages of spirituality are crossed; but a sadhak becomes a mukta after going beyond even that high stage. He is then always guided by inspirations or intuitions. They may sometimes become vocal as an inner voice or be silent. In any case his actions spring up always spontaneously - without any pre-thought*, whereas in the earlier stages, actions may take place in response to an inner voice. But the voice is sporadic, not constant. That sadhak's other actions are the results of pre-thinking.

*Thought precedes words (or actions)in the case of ordinary good people. Words (or actions) precede thought in that of first-rate spiritual giants. - Bhavabhuti (one of the greatest dramatists in Sanskrit).

Nandubhai: why do they say that a baby should be named when it becomes six months old?

Pujya Sri Mota: Perhaps the parents' attachment for the baby may be less until then (so that they may be less unhappy if it dies before the period).

Nandubhai: Totapuriji, "the Naked Saint", head of 700 naked saints and also the one who led Sri Ramkrishna* to the highest adwaita state, once got very angry with a man for taking a burning coal from the fire he always kept by his side. He even ran to beat the fleeing man with fire-thongs. How was it that one, who had the experiential knowledge of being brahma himself, got angry at all and for such a petty fault?

Pujya Sri Mota: Such anger is superficial, only apparent. At heart such people are serene and quiet, not perturbed at all. Even a highly advanced saint, moreover, who performs ceremonial worship is likely to be very agitated at the slightest disrespect shown to his cherished deity (Fire here). It is wrong to infer that such a man was not one of the most highly Self-realized persons just because he go angry. Such sensitiveness is an insignificant trait in this nature. He can shed off his uneasiness even under a similar situation as easily as does a cobra its outer skin. The saint that has spent many hours in a definite ceremonial form of worship and attained Self-realization through it, continues to go on performing his favourite spiritual practice even afterward. To him that ceremonial form is not meaningless. He regards it as a very sacred act and strictly follows the touch me-not behaviour. He lays great emphasis on what he regards as the purity of the body. He observes very strict rules for maintaining his external purity. Proper evaluation of any sadhak's state is not possible on the basis of his outward behaviour. It is wrong to judge him by that standard.

*Sri Ramkrishna Paramhansa realized God, not only through his worship of Mother Kali, but also through the sadhanas indicated in all religions - a feat attained perhaps by only one in the history of the world's saints.

Nandubhai: What is the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi?

Pujya Sri Mota: There remains no distinction between them in the state of mahasamadhi (great samadhi), since through both a man arrives at the experiential knowledge of the ultimate. If savikalpa samadhi means that state in which thought has not disappeared, it does not deserve to be called samadhi at all. The real characteristic of savikalpa samadhi is the experience of saguna (with an attribute) brahma.

Nandubhai: Is it possible that a man may not be a mukta even after experiencing nirvikalpa samadhi (a trance without any attribute)?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes, it is possible. When such trances may have just begun, he may not be a mukta, but will become one after some time. The period between nirvikalpa samadhi and mukta is not the same for one and all. It varies with different sadhaks.

Nandubhai: some sadhaks who have come out of our silence-rooms, state that they had actually seen you in bodily form during their silence period. Can this be a fact?

Pujya Sri Mota: This (pointing at his body) may be anywhere outside silence-rooms and yet go there, be there at the same time.

Nandubhai: Why then cannot all (entrants into the silence-rooms) see your body?

Pujya Sri Mota: Have they enough faith for it? That appearance is not possible for persons without firm faith. This body does go in and come out of silence-rooms, though incessantly seen by you.

Nandubhai: Is brooding on one's past mistakes and lapses, their frequent expression sin frantic words and poignant prayers, so that they may not recur any more, helpful in sadhana?

Pujya Sri Mota: No. It is not only not helpful but may be even harmful. One must first clearly see one's fault and repent for it with utmost sincerity and then cease to ruminate over it. A chain of thoughts of any kind obstructs single-minded meditation.

Nandubhai: Is it possible that a man may not be a mukta even though he has controlled sex, wealth and pwer?

Pujya Sri Mota: Quite Possible; but a man at that high stage will become a mukta in a short time.

Nandubhai: Suppose a man very consciously, persistently tries and by his willpower and Herculean efforts gains the power of vicarious suffering. He is hence afflicted with the diseases of his dear ones. Is that a sure sign of being a mukta?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes, decidely so.

Nandubhai: Who is your Guru, Balyougiji or Saibaba (of Shirdi)? Who led you to the highest experience of advaita (non duality)?

Pujya Sri Mota: My real Guru was Keshavanandji known as “Dhunivala Dada”; but I have heard him affirm that he as well as Saibaba of Shirdi and some others he named were manifestations of one and the same chetan (divine all pervading life) and were all one and the same.

Nandubhai: But was it not Balayogiji who initiated you in sadhana? And was it not he for whom you ran up to Kumbha Mela* to get your problem solved?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes. It was Balayogiji in both cases.

*A religious fair attended by hundreds and thousands of worldly men and hermits.

Nandubhai: During our sadhana period or thereafter did you ever think of renouncing the world?

Pujya Sri Mota: Never. since the very beginning my ideal was always that of acceptance of the world as the basis of sadhana.

Nandubhai: some of those who take silence in our silence-rooms state that they had your pratyaksha darshan (vivid appearance). What does this pratyaksha mean - a mental but clear picture of actual sight through eyes?

Pujya Sri Mota: Not at all a clear figure conjured up by the mind. they mean they saw me in flesh and blood, with their own eyes, in their fully wakeful state. Such clear physical perception is quite possible.

Nandubhai: They say that for many days you had once eaten your faeces and drunk your urine during your sadhana days. Is it true?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes.

Nandubhai: When and how did it all happen? I would feel obliged, if you explain it in detail.

Pujya Sri Mota: I took a month's leave and went to a lonely place in the Central Provinces for my sadhana. For a full twenty-four to twenty-five days there, I took no other food or water except my faeces and urine. In spite of this abstinence from ordinary food and water, the excretions continued normally for the whole period; that was my only way of sustenance and the practice had improved my faeces and invigorated all the parts of my body.

Nandubhai: did you not feel a strong repugnance against eating faeces? One can understand it about urine but faeces?

Pujya Sri Mota: Faeces did not emit any bad smell. They tasted like dung. Intense eagerness to gain something can overcome all dislikes and obstructions.

Nandubhai: Can not this type of sadhana be termed as one of a filthy gruesome kind. Is such a sadhana absolutely necessary for all? Was it somebody else who suggested it or you yourself thought of it?

Pujya Sri Mota: It is certainly the sadhana of a nauseating type. It is not a must for every sadhak. Nobody had suggested it to me. The idea was entirely mine.

Nandubhai: Did the excretions alone satiate your hunger and thirst?

Pujya Sri Mota: Yes, they did.

Nandubhai: Did you become a mukta immediately after the sakshatkar of adwaita or some time later?

Pujya Sri Mota: I reached the niravata stage in 1930, dwait (dualism) in 1934 and adwaita in 1939. There was thus an interval of nine years between the first and the third, but the state of mukta immediately followed that of adwaita.

Nandubhai: There was a serious difference between a husband and wife and she lived separately. Both the families were respected as pillars of society. The quarrel was serious indeed, but not such as could not be patched up. the wife was even inclined to take that course and return to her husband. Before, however taking any step, she asked Sri -'s advice. Instead of supporting her desire for reunion and harmony, mukta gave her just the opposite advice: to stick to her alienation and not be afraid of public censure. Though she was totally unfit for a lonely life, she was asked to lead it. Accordingly she went to a law court and got a divorce-decree. The press played up the case and both the families — the husband's and the father's - lost their prestigious position in society. Had the mukta upheld reconciliation, she would have, I feel, returned to the normal worldly life and become happy. But the mukta's instigation brought about a permanent rupture. Her children lost their mother, though alive, and she her dear children, her husband and his family. And who knows what spiritual progress she will make from this unfriendly action? What is your view in the matter?

Pujya Sri Mota: That mukta's advice was certainly improper. He himself is undoubtedly a mukta, but is impractical. He has the habit of giving high flown advice to all and sundry. He does not care to consider whether his advice is digestible and helpful to men of the ordinary rut of life. People are very likely to lost at least their worldly happiness thereby. Every mukta, moreover, has his own individual way of manifestation before the world. He has his own style of living and his own way of dealing with others. It is not true that every mukta must give uniformly the same advice to all persons under one and the same circumstances. Behind every mukta's behaviour there is along past of personal experiences, his special method for self-elevation, his characteristic attitude towards those efforts and his own technique for overcoming the difficulties on his path. All that creates an individual trend for instructions to others. Even all that is not enough. There is also the question of the environment in which a mukta was born. Men of different countries, different civilizations, and different times have been known to have become muktas. Hence they differ in their guidance to other. It springs from all those factors and varies with each mukta.

Nandubhai: Can a mukta do any harm to anybody? People believe that whatever a mukta does, whatever instruction he gives, is bound to be helpful, never harmful to the persons concerned.

Pujya Sri Mota: the popular view is not wholly correct. His guidance sometimes may turn out to be harmful. The mukta does not loose anything personally. No harm is done to him from a wrong advice, since he goes his own way and lets others do the same. Only when someone approaches him and requests him to say what to do, he gives his advice. It is, besides, free from the degrading prejudices of attachment and aversion. All the same, solely from the material point of view, there is a chance of hardship to the person advised. If the man who goes to a mukta has full faith in him, he never repents his approach to a mukta in spite of his worldly loss. His deep faith saves him from much worry over the loss and definitely it spurts him on along his spiritual path. In most cases, however, the seeker of a mukta's advice may not necessarily bear a good fruit. Each and every mukta need not be a man of practical wisdom. The good result of his instruction depends not only upon the mukta, but also upon the seeker's capacity for mental acceptance of the advice. All seekers do not possess as much receptivity and power of implementation as could help them in life. It is in the field of spirituality or self-reform alone, that a mukta's advice invariably helps. You cannot say for certain that his advice in the mundane field is always sure to do good to the person affected.

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